tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post3683137706914611268..comments2023-12-25T23:40:17.701-05:00Comments on Confessions of a Carioca: The Episcopal Church Welcomes YouDaniel Martinshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15980949721733826978noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-70054275768636434672009-12-07T19:24:14.441-05:002009-12-07T19:24:14.441-05:00You will note that the shield is not merely cockey...You will note that the shield is not merely cockeyed, but is tilted to the left.Mike Finneynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-91535605377826237242009-12-03T19:45:14.143-05:002009-12-03T19:45:14.143-05:00MONOGAMOUS
Monogamous means "one woman" ...MONOGAMOUS<br />Monogamous means "one woman" (leaving, by necessity, the other party to be a man) The Episcopal Church is committed to monogamy by its formularies, but the leadership of this church does not believe,teach, or insist upon monogamy. This item is in the "not true" column.<br />ericfromnewyorkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-25630599687217712792009-12-02T23:28:06.969-05:002009-12-02T23:28:06.969-05:00Dan, I've come to hold a similar view to you a...Dan, I've come to hold a similar view to you about TEC, especially in this comment: <br /><br />"I have watched diversity dry up and wither in the Episcopal Church. We are becoming theologically monochrome at an exponential rate. Tolerance is in short supply. Some laud this as a sign of increased unity, and it indeed is. Unity inevitably results when dissidents are driven away. But it is unity purchased at the price of size and strength. <b>Instead of being a spiritual department store</b> (as is any church that lays claim to being catholic),<b> TEC has become a specialty boutique on the way toward becoming a novelty kiosk in the back wing of the mall.</b>"<br />I know the bolded sentence is a bit too clever, but I have to say, it made me laugh nervously. It should be an absurd statement, but each day that goes by makes the comparison seem more apt.<br /><br />Dave C.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-41716695351099389982009-11-29T23:00:29.517-05:002009-11-29T23:00:29.517-05:00Brother Dan, I'm sure you're familiar with...Brother Dan, I'm sure you're familiar with the old joke about the gentleman who asked his priest to pray about the weather. The priest responded, "For that you'll have to talk to the Boss. I'm just in Sales."<br /><br />My commentary on that joke is that as a hospital chaplain "I'm in Maintenance." I've encountered many who felt abused spiritually if not otherwise by clergy and congregations across the spectrum (although, admittedly, most commonly at the extremes of Evangelical and Roman churches). I think those folks are the audience intended for this ad. Those folks have long found a home in the Episcopal Church; and after half a generation of apparent ascendancy of conservative churches (again, at both ends of the spectrum) I find myself wondering if there aren't lots of those folks out there to reach out to.<br /><br />In that light, it also makes sense to be clear how we differ from some others, and especially those "separated and separating siblings" who spend a great deal more time talking about us than talking about themselves. I wouldn't want us to do so simply "as a slap;" but I think it worthwhile to do so somehow.<br /><br />I do find it wordy, but also largely accurate. Yes, the comment about relationships avoids reference to gay couples. Yet, it is accurate because the Episcopal Church does expect the same qualities of faithfulness from those couples as from straight couples. As for your comment that "presbyters, after all, are <i>elders</i>. They are, for that reason, entitled to a presumption of knowing better." Forgive me, brother, but knowing <i>what</i> better? We clerics know many things better; but our distinctions are, I think, matters of function, of vocation, and not of inspiration. "We ought not to hamstring bishops from exercising, individually and collectively, the ministry for which they were consecrated;" but neither ought we to denigrate how the Spirit might function in and through our lay siblings. So, I'm not so certain that, "in the ordinary councils of the church, it is completely appropriate for bishops and presbyters to have disproportionate influence."<br /><br />I'd certainly like to see better ad copy. However, I think I'm more hopeful than you about this beginning.Marshall Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02807749717320495495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-42289127870345619102009-11-26T08:53:34.404-05:002009-11-26T08:53:34.404-05:00In terms of PR, the newspapers reporting of the la...In terms of PR, the newspapers reporting of the lawsuits provides a different "portrait" of TEC than what TEC puts out. Additionally, the word of mouth testimony of unsatisfied customers who have left and those within TEC also counters the attempt to brand itself the "inclusive' church. The TEC brand is simply not attractive because Evangelism is incarnational and Evangelists are contagious. TEC is asking the fish to jump in the boat and not casting out its net. I do not believe the leadership of TEC is seriously seeking to grow the church. Secondly, it no longer understands who it is and what its mission is. Dcn Dale MatsonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-64991393482963910812009-11-25T11:18:42.614-05:002009-11-25T11:18:42.614-05:00Sort of off topic, but Dan, but based on Bishop Wh...Sort of off topic, but Dan, but based on Bishop Whalon's impeccable French (listen here to RFI interview with him about the recent controversy between Rowan and Rome), you should listen closely to his cultural pointers.<br /><br />http--telechargement.rfi.fr.edgesuite.net-rfi-francais-audio-magazines-r118-religions_du_monde_1_20091115_0110.mp3<br /><br />I suppose reading PR statements can be a bit like Rorschach inkspots, but if both conservative and progressive readers pick up a hint of 'we're not like those horrible ___ ', then there is something to it, even if the redactors didn't intend it. Attracting converts having unfinished issues with their former church is not a healthy growth strategy.<br /><br />SteveAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-82149993143480825672009-11-24T21:45:08.394-05:002009-11-24T21:45:08.394-05:00It is a start. What would be something to draw in...It is a start. What would be something to draw in the 'outsider?'<br />What are the progressive blogs take?<br /><br />Sidebar: My experience in France was that the French prefer if we make a try at saying something in French rather than expect them to know English.<br /><br />There is a statement about welcome in that encounter that involves cultural and hospitality.Moving towards the Garden of Good and Evilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11818102905507920720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-77385637586755794142009-11-24T20:04:05.448-05:002009-11-24T20:04:05.448-05:00I have read your blog for a couple of years now, t...I have read your blog for a couple of years now, the total sum of time that I've been a member of the Episcopal church. You are a sharp and critical thinker, and you express what you think extremely clearly. I've learned alot about Episcopal and Anglican viewpoints that are not my own, but that I, and may other Episcopalians, value. This site is a great teaching resource, even though I know that is not the main reason it exists. <br /><br />Parts of this piece are some of the most cynical responses I've read here. The statements in the ad express what many centrist Episcopalians believe, and I don't think we need protection from spin. They convey information about the Episcopal church that is true, and that many may not know. We who take the Baptismal Covenant seriously are not a quasi-cult. <br /><br /> Many of the statements express core beliefs that are regularly given voice in my parish. For example, "loving neighbors as ourselves" and "respecting the dignity of every person" are emphasized in some way every week. This is because they are deceptively simple to speak, but exceptionally difficult to achieve without intentional effort. I've never heard them spoken as weapons aimed at others, or used as symbols of superiority. <br /><br /> Not having ever been Catholic, I don't see most of the statements you suggest are aimed at defining TEC as "not Catholic" or "superior to Catholic" in that way. Some, including the one about reproductive choice, target issues the Catholic church has spoken out about recently. Still, I don't see cheap shots. The unchurched, or less-churched, will not read them that way. Perhaps we are the intended audience of the ad, not those who have recently left the church, or who are fringe members of the Catholic church. Evidently identifying the source materials on which these statements are based and expertly defining the terms in them could be a final exam in "ecclesiology". Many of us are not there, though, and we read USA Today too. <br /><br /><br />The last half of the essay proves you to be a deep thinker and possessor of much knowledge and church experience I don't have. Some of this experience seems to be hurtful to you, and to cause distrust of some very simple statements. <br /><br />Being a member of an Episcopal parish that seems well described by this ad does make me feel good, warmly welcomed, and regularly invites me to a life-changing encounter with Jesus Christ. For that parish, its leadership and community, I give thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-84304924019416469652009-11-24T02:55:34.849-05:002009-11-24T02:55:34.849-05:00I agree with Malcolm+ that it could have been bett...I agree with Malcolm+ that it could have been better. But it's better than no ad at all. And many of Dan's points are well taken. The ad is a response to Rome's recent tapdance on the head of Rowan and the rest of us, even if that was not uppermost in the minds of its formulators.<br /><br />Again, I welcome the notion that we should have a presence in national media. But a more positive message than "welcomes you" is hard to find.<br /><br />Finally, Dan+, sorry for the experience in Paris. Next time, however, preface all you say to anyone with "Bonjour, Monsieur (or Madame)." Just addressing someone directly is considered very rude, and usually gets a frosty reply. And congratulations on being a Rotarian!<br /><br />Bishop Pierre WhalonPierrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15443276631484221615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-76340126292685056432009-11-24T00:32:29.282-05:002009-11-24T00:32:29.282-05:00Looking at it with my PR professional hat, I just ...Looking at it with my PR professional hat, I just don't think it was a very good ad. At all. Too wordy. Full of "in crowd" messaging that is meaningless at best or confusing at worst to the "not in crowd" reader. Tedious and tendentious in a number of ways you've identified.<br /><br />Like Ann, I don't agree with all your specific criticisms, but I do think you have the rights of it on several points.<br /><br />FWIW, it doesn't seem tom have been a hit with anyone - with several progressive blogs offering alternatives.Malcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-59749246478740219512009-11-23T23:20:43.838-05:002009-11-23T23:20:43.838-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.com