tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post9089519413796382029..comments2023-12-25T23:40:17.701-05:00Comments on Confessions of a Carioca: Sauce for the Gander?Daniel Martinshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15980949721733826978noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-79165500633646194852007-07-28T01:24:00.000-04:002007-07-28T01:24:00.000-04:00WWJD? What are we here for?WWJD? What are we here for?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-69184280560551606302007-07-26T06:15:00.000-04:002007-07-26T06:15:00.000-04:00Apart from the apparent sloppiness (and remember, ...Apart from the apparent sloppiness (and remember, people in the Church are amateurs, not professionals…), the two cases are un-related. <BR/> <BR/>Diocese 1 did not receive enough signed consents. Not even prolonging the period. Nil.<BR/><BR/>Diocese 2 did receive Consent, however un-canonical in form.<BR/>“Form” is secondary. <BR/><BR/>“Form” does not trump “matter”. Nor is every “violation” a VIOLATION, indeed every violation does not carry the same weight. <BR/><BR/>The “matter” of consent is primary. <BR/><BR/>If there are no signatures, no consents can be established. Simple as that.<BR/><BR/>Nor did the “short” vs “long” muddle start yesteryear over the SC case, but years ago. <BR/><BR/>To my mind this speaks strongly against the “malicious intent” interpretation… <BR/><BR/>The SC and V muddles are unrelated. There is no case; there is nothing to see. Claiming there is – as is currently done all over Titus-one-nine and Stand Firm and other blogs – is indeed malicious.<BR/><BR/>Amateurish sloppiness versus The Evil Eye. An un-even battle to be sure…Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-65257008702659337802007-07-25T01:57:00.000-04:002007-07-25T01:57:00.000-04:00""In the past, when consents to episcopal election...""In the past, when consents to episcopal elections have been so closely contested, the diocese has been diligent in seeking to have canonically adequate ballots submitted, asking Standing Committees to resubmit their ballots when necessary," she added. "It is certainly my hope that in future any diocese seeking consent to an election will use all possible effort to ensure that ballots are received in an appropriate form and in a timely manner."<BR/><BR/>Let's hope.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-63353611955797062532007-07-25T01:49:00.000-04:002007-07-25T01:49:00.000-04:00Sarah,The violation of a canon does not in fact ma...Sarah,<BR/><BR/>The violation of a canon does not in fact matter if the thing has been going on for a decade.<BR/><BR/>Even if it causes you to use capital letters.<BR/><BR/>There will be people who have accepted decisions in good faith, and so on... This makes the faulty/defect decision stand in most legal systems (the small matter of “intentio”, you know).<BR/><BR/>"Moot" is the proper word.<BR/><BR/>If (as here) 2 different wordings have been used simultaneously, one will (probably, but not necessarily) have to fall. <BR/><BR/>But let me suggest that the preference will be for the short form…<BR/><BR/>Sloppiness to be sure! But no one who has seen a few Diocesan bureaucracies at close range can marvel; sloppiness = routine.<BR/><BR/>Yet, remember the accusation here is not sloppiness but malicious intent.<BR/><BR/>Never ascribe to malice, what may be sufficiently explained by sloppiness!<BR/><BR/>Still unknown: Who? When? Why? How many times compared to the correct form?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-25521106983072140722007-07-24T22:59:00.000-04:002007-07-24T22:59:00.000-04:00The fact that we're even having this conversation ...The fact that we're even having this conversation is an argument for strict adherence to our church rules. I freely admit that TEC has screwed up here, but I think the underlying problem is not favoritism, but simple laziness. The statement by Canon Gerdau that “no one has ever objected to it [use of the un-canonical wording] before” is incredible. Was he simply saving keystrokes? Who knows?<BR/><BR/>Let’s not get too high and mighty about this, however. There are too many minor rules that, in principle, can get someone presented. Did you know that you could be presented for disobeying the rubrics of the prayer book? What priest hasn’t been guilty of that? Remember the old saw that any good district attorney can indict a ham sandwich!<BR/><BR/>All this is to say that we should be as conscientious as possible about obeying the constitution and canons, but we should also recognize that discipline is not always the answer to minor infractions committed inadvertently or with the best of intentions.<BR/><BR/>Much good can come out of this affair, and I hope that the Presiding Bishop will insist on a humbler attitude toward the canons at 815.Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-47518821414124834992007-07-24T16:21:00.000-04:002007-07-24T16:21:00.000-04:00For the record, after some pressure, Jan Nunley ha...For the record, after some pressure, Jan Nunley has corrected her original post to retract the incorrect information that South Carolina used the uncanonical "short form."<BR/><BR/>http://episcopalchurch.typepad.com/episcope/2007/07/and-another-thi.html#comments<BR/><BR/>The Living Church has more<BR/>http://www.livingchurch.org/publishertlc/viewarticle.asp?ID=3517Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07776057299013988717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-27214823540866177862007-07-24T15:22:00.000-04:002007-07-24T15:22:00.000-04:00RE: "That is what counts.The difference in form (“...RE: "That is what counts.<BR/><BR/>The difference in form (“short” versus “long”) probably is moot after a decade of "short" forms."<BR/><BR/>No, Goran Koch-Swahne, that is not "what counts" -- what counts is that it was a VIOLATION OF THE CANONS. It is not "moot" to have VIOLATIONS OF THE CANONS.<BR/><BR/>In fact, let me quote our beloved Presiding Bishop who had this to say about bishop consents and VIOLATIONS OF THE CANONS:<BR/><BR/>""In the past, when consents to episcopal elections have been so closely contested, the diocese has been diligent in seeking to have canonically adequate ballots submitted, asking Standing Committees to resubmit their ballots when necessary," she added. "It is certainly my hope that in future any diocese seeking consent to an election will use all possible effort to ensure that ballots are received in an appropriate form and in a timely manner."<BR/><BR/>SarahAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-69537120125312677132007-07-24T13:33:00.000-04:002007-07-24T13:33:00.000-04:00Again, the consents in the SC case were not “signe...Again, the consents in the SC case were not “signed by a constitutional majority”.<BR/><BR/>That is what counts.<BR/><BR/>The difference in form (“short” versus “long”) probably is moot after a decade of "short" forms.<BR/><BR/>But I most willingly grant you that “don’t know of any impediment” is not “give out consent”. <BR/><BR/>Which on the other hand very probably is why it was changed ;=)<BR/><BR/>Also, if there has been any preferential treatment in these two cases, it’s for South Carolina (the prolonging of the period of consents) not for Virginia.<BR/><BR/>This is pretence playing the "victim" of the "establishment". <BR/><BR/>We should all have learnt to regognize that one, by now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-4341460690915782872007-07-24T11:25:00.000-04:002007-07-24T11:25:00.000-04:00Göran Koch-Swahne,What on earth are you talking ab...Göran Koch-Swahne,<BR/><BR/>What on earth are you talking about? Apparently, the diocese of Virginia sent out the wrong form to the Standing Committees . . . a form whose words were in VIOLATION of the canons.<BR/><BR/>Every single "consent" sent back was not valid. They were all in violation of the canons. Thus no valid consents were received.<BR/><BR/>The truth is, that apparently some of the consents to the election of the bishop of South Carolina were in blatant violation of the canons, and thus invalid. . . . And apparently ALL of the consents to the election of the bishop of Virginia were in blatant violation of the canons and thus invalid.<BR/><BR/>Thing is . . . Presiding Bishop Jefferts Schori chose NOT to invalidate the election of the bishop of Virginia, despite the blatant violation of the canons. And Presiding Bishop Jefferts Schori chose to invalidate the election of the bishop of South Carolina, based on the blatant violation of the canons.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-66342081122154017372007-07-24T10:40:00.000-04:002007-07-24T10:40:00.000-04:00So your query is false: “It is my hope that someon...So your query is false: <BR/><BR/>“It is my hope that someone will suggest a plausible benign construction of the Presiding Bishop's decision to enforce canon law strictly in one case and generously in another. This is what I want to see.”<BR/><BR/>There is no need of a “plausible benign construction”. <BR/><BR/>There has been no “… Presiding Bishop's decision to enforce canon law strictly in one case and generously in another”.<BR/><BR/>Suggesting that there has – as you do – is false witness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-53572524639412222432007-07-24T10:32:00.000-04:002007-07-24T10:32:00.000-04:00And if the omitting the "don't see any impediment"...And if the omitting the "don't see any impediment" part has been done for a decade I can see no real chance of it getting corrected. <BR/><BR/>And if it does get corrected, <BR/>it wont't affect the "legality" <BR/>of past (incorrect) consents.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-37943829435525458592007-07-24T10:24:00.000-04:002007-07-24T10:24:00.000-04:00I can see no inconsistency here. Both dioceses hav...I can see no inconsistency here. <BR/><BR/>Both dioceses have been using a shortened form of the canonical wording, omitting the "don't know of any impediment" part.<BR/><BR/>Personally I think it should be included.<BR/><BR/>Diocese 1 did not recieve enough signed consents. Not even prolonging the period.<BR/><BR/>Diocese 2 did.<BR/><BR/>Thus not "inconsistent", because different circumstanced, not the same.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-5010158169593236952007-07-23T21:26:00.000-04:002007-07-23T21:26:00.000-04:00Lionel, tell me you don't see just the tiniest inc...Lionel, tell me you don't see just the tiniest inconsistency as expressed in the actions of 815 in the rigorous vs. lax application of the canon depending on the perspective of the bishop-to-be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-51217738146999409492007-07-23T20:31:00.000-04:002007-07-23T20:31:00.000-04:00Thanks to Tom for pointing out the rather surprisi...Thanks to Tom for pointing out the rather surprising information reported by the Rev. Jan Nunley. If, as she suggests, dioceses have, for ten years, been using a wording on the consent form that differs from the canonical wording, responsibility for that must rest in the Office of the Presiding Bishop, though obviously not with the current Presiding Bishop herself. I’m sure that office has been advising dioceses regarding how to request consents. As I suggested, there is no real scandal here, but there does seem to be some administrative sloppiness that needs to be cleaned up.<BR/><BR/>I continue to believe, as I suggested in my post, that there is a substantive difference in the two wordings. In the canonical version, standing committee members consent, based on knowing no impediment to consecration. In the shorter version, they merely consent, though on who knows what basis.Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-80585878539531729902007-07-23T18:28:00.000-04:002007-07-23T18:28:00.000-04:00All: epiScope has a posting responding to the situ...All: epiScope has a posting <A HREF="http://episcopalchurch.typepad.com/episcope/2007/07/and-another-thi.html" REL="nofollow">responding to the situation</A>. As Jan Nunley (editor) and folks who have commented above have pointed out, it is the signatures on a form giving consent that is the challenge, not the wording. The other issue is, frankly, that the number of consents were so close to the required number in South Carolina that irregularities like e-mailed notices of consent dropped the number below the threshold. I suspect that would not be the case in Virginia.Tom Sramek, Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17891982131922786298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-42365392816981910002007-07-23T15:34:00.000-04:002007-07-23T15:34:00.000-04:00Fr. Dan,This is important and unfortunate. I thin...Fr. Dan,<BR/><BR/>This is important and unfortunate. I think Lionel's advice (above) is probably the best that can be done. In this case, what's sauce for the goose *does* seem to apply here.<BR/><BR/>RFSJRFSJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15164772153139719659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-54259785051367329672007-07-23T12:29:00.000-04:002007-07-23T12:29:00.000-04:00I do not see a scandal here, but the standing comm...I do not see a scandal here, but the standing committee raises legitimate questions that ought to be addressed. You can read my analysis and my suggestions as to what the Presiding Bishop should do <A HREF="http://deimel.org/commentary/blogger/2007/07/doing-consents-right.htm" REL="nofollow">here</A>.Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-83729059528265188332007-07-23T08:12:00.000-04:002007-07-23T08:12:00.000-04:00What complete nonsense. The problem with the Lawre...What complete nonsense. The problem with the Lawrence consents was that THEY WERE'T SIGNED. They were emailed text and not something bearing a signature.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005537995315440769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-57868456478593697312007-07-23T08:07:00.000-04:002007-07-23T08:07:00.000-04:00I am shocked! Shocked! To think that the first res...I am shocked! Shocked! To think that the first response from the 'worthy opponents' served up by be.....19 would be filet of red herring. Hey, when you can't deal with the real question, provide an answer to a non-question you can deal with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-69075520264590330762007-07-23T02:10:00.000-04:002007-07-23T02:10:00.000-04:00WHOA.While I consider myself a fairly strict const...WHOA.<BR/><BR/>While I consider myself a fairly strict constructionist in these matters of protocol (I like my i's dotted and t's crossed), I think that the issue here is quite a bit different from that which was at hand in South Carolina. If I remember correctly, the real problem with the documents in SC was that, in several cases, an original document signed by all the members of the various Standing Committees was not presented. In this case, it would not be possible to establish that the members of the Standing Committee had rightly and duly given their consent. Therefore, it would not be possible to establish that consent had indeed been given. That is quite a different thing from the Virginia document, which omits some wording. The important thing is that the DOCUMENT is produced, bearing the appropriate signatures, thereby testifying that all the members of the various Standing Committees did indeed give their consent to the consecration. <BR/><BR/>Let's not forget, shall we, that canon law WAS bent in order to give SC a few extra days to get in all of the consents that were lacking (and they still weren't able to get it together). So, if canon law dictating deadlines can be bent in that case (for the "conservatives"), then I think it can be bent in regard to wording (for the so-called "liberals"). <BR/><BR/>Nevertheless, I think the issue should be addressed, if only to satisfy those who simply want to cause trouble and divert attention to themselves.<BR/><BR/>Interesting, isn't it, that San Joaquin is asking for the letter of the law to be enforced while they have already committed a brazen canonical crime that is not at all based upon small technicalities. Two-faced, eh?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-7193028592611325282007-07-22T20:40:00.000-04:002007-07-22T20:40:00.000-04:00Thank you Fr. Dan for sharing this. And thanks to...Thank you Fr. Dan for sharing this. And thanks to the Diocese of SJ's standing committee for being willing to take a stand and shine the light on this and call for transparency and truth.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07776057299013988717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34346296.post-74865197700478604042007-07-22T19:56:00.000-04:002007-07-22T19:56:00.000-04:00Rock...meet hard place. I too pray there is a reas...Rock...meet hard place. I too pray there is a reasonable explanation. However if there was one, most normal people would have given it out after only one letter. Unless there is such disrespect for the diocese of San Joaquin or an attempt to come up with a fix. Why would the PB { & Booth Beers and Dio Virginia] want to hide the evidence that proves the correct consents were received? What a mess. Do they now have to re elect & obtain new consents for Bishop Johnston? If he didn't have consents is he able to be recognized in TEC as a Bishop? What a mess.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com